Bills were met this week

a very minimal amount was able to go into the envelopes and we had Sat. off to drive an hour to the north and use a coupon for a fish dinner and visit a good will store..
The foreclosure of the flea market really has hit hard… We have lost 1/3 of the income… and I am not sure if I had mentioned this or not but Chris also pastored a small church for the flea market vendors there also. The owners of the flea market paid us 90.00 a month ( really we did not do it for the money) , but a month before they announced the foreclosure they had asked Chris to step down because he wouldn’t do what they asked…. which was we allowed a black woman to pray at the end of service…. ( yep, I’m in the rural south folks)… so along with the scramble to a new business place we are still a bit raw from that whole ordeal…
The flea market decided to relocate and we told them we could not accept the beliefs of the owners/ management… so our tiny little spot in our hometown ( the flea market was 30 minutes away from our home) is the hub of our business…. and its doing OK…. we were really hitting our stride at the old location BUT, thankful we didn’t have any debt to carry with us…
The woman next to our new shop is a realtor and she printed off the real estate listing for the old building we were in… they went into foreclosure in Nov, so the lie they told us in Jan about a new owner and a 3 year lease was false…. and no one new bought the building in March like they told us… the 10 days we had to pack up and relocate was because of an evicition notice and the bank had turned the property over to a trustee…. The realtor said we could sue for rents that we paid int he last 90 days because that is the amount of time allowed in a foreclosure…. those folks simply wanted the rent money up to the very end…
This whole thig has me a bit stressed, I am so glad I have my garden to distract me! AND 100lbs of potatoes to can from a local farmer :)….
..and just between us friends here… may I say I hate racist liars… hate might be a bit harsh….. how about dislike intensely

We were soooo off track this weekend

but better prepared then we normally would have been if not for EF. Dh had one of his milestone birthday’s this week and I had been scratching my head for months on what to get him.. Finally I hit on the perfect gift… Appleseed, a Revolutionary War Rifle Association weekend he has wanted for quite awhile. He was ecstatic! The actual weekend was not the issue, but all the equipment he needed for this outdoor weekend added up. On top of that I had to run the shoppe by myself for the weekend… and I am certainly not as good at answering questions and doing tech work as Dh… It was also a slow weekend …soooooo, lets just say the EF needs to be built back up…. but dh had the most wonderful time and I know he will remember this birthday as one of the best!

I dunno –

I think you aren’t giving yourself enough credit (no pun intended). First, you’re paying attention to your finances. That’s better than a LOT of people. You have a Baby Emergency Fund. Again, you’re ahead of many in this consumer-driven world. AND, you’ve already paid off one debt forever! Ya done good! Keep up the good work, and you’ll officially be ‘weird’ before you know it!


Look at what you just wrote! You got your bef FUNDED You paid off a bill! You are doing it girl! There is a reason it’s called baby steps, you didn’t get in debt overnight and you won’t get out overnight (I’m in my fourth year, and that is why it’s starting to look like it’s all coming together fast now—it’s been a long hard road, but soooooo worth it.) It WILL happen, you are getting into the groove of it, there will be speed bumps but you WILL get there, and it will happen sooner than you think.


Will I ever see the end of the rainbow? I finally finished baby step 1 and working on step 2, which by the way paid off on bill a early termination fee from verizon which was over $500 which included an over due cell bill. It took me several months but got it paid off. I get so discourage at times, I don’t see the end coming.

Small cars and back seats a a definite no no for me..

I found my seabands on Amazon for around 6.00 but I bet the drug store or Wallyworld carries them….they really do work… We did a Blueridge parkway trip in a Camry… and I didn’t mark a single spot… only had to gulp out the window like a dog once….

Glad he’s going to be okay

Luckily my dh’s hand injury could be handled by me and was minor. No stitches, but I know what you mean about it really messing up routines. Be careful to not let him do too much too soon or he’ll bust it back open.
The farm sinking fund is a good idea. Goodness knows there is always something needing built or repaired on every farm across the nation. Ahhh spring, time for garden planning, farm chores, new critters and life anew.

I’m still a tad sleepy

I was up late researching something last night and DH doesn’t have to work today, so we slept in. Sorta. I just finished Cuppa #1.

Last week was intense; we finished up two major farming projects (pig harvest and goat kidding season), and went right into the next items: starting to get fields ready for either grazing, haying or plowing. Plus we’re helping our landlord get his land certified organic, and there’s a lot of stuff to consider with that. But we’re honored to be asked to help with that task. In the middle of that, DH managed to injure his hand really badly, badly enough that we had to drop everything at 9pm at night and speed down to the ER to have it assessed by doctors more skilled than I at triage. Happily, no permanent injury, some stitches and bandages that had to be changed every day, but he gets the stitches out today. That meant that I had to do all the chores again during the week since he couldn’t lift anything and couldn’t get that hand wet. So it was a hugely busy week. BUT, we had several nice conversations about how to manage money, which is such a huge improvement over the fights we used to have.

One big update – that escrow refund? We’ve decided to put it into savings for the time being, while we continue to consider options and particularly while we wait to see what a few certain things are going to cost us. But long term, it looks like the money will be used as “starter money” for an ongoing farm sinking fund. We came to that decision via a roundabout way. We have predictable, repeating costs well in hand with our monthly budget, for both the household and the farm, and our snowball is clicking along OK. But sometimes we would still bicker as we came upon unexpected, non-repeating costs or one-time capital investment expenses for stuff with the farm. For instance, getting a new pasture fenced in, so that we can expand our grazing area and cut down on feed costs. But it’s going to cost us about $1000 to get that initial setup done. Once it’s done, it’ll pay for itself within a few months. But until now, we just couldn’t quite squeeze the weekly/monthly budget enough to get that money together. With this refund, we’ll be able to get an account going for that sort of thing, start it off with a nice fat amount, then continue to contribute to it and pull from it over time as needed. I’m pretty happy with that solution and DH is too. So I guess that’s our biggest news.

Oh, and whatever folks do, try real hard not to injure their hands when they do manual labor every day. Really messes up the schedule. I’m glad he’s OK but wow he’s getting stir crazy, waiting for his hand to heal.

LOL! Hello sister!

Motion sickness definitely plays a role in what I do and don’t ride at amusement parks too. Generally I’ll try to ride everything ONCE, but after that…
If you ever go to WDW stay away from the full blown ride Mission to Mars—this ride literally comes with barf bags included. I rode it once after taking Dramamine ahead of time and still was so sick I nearly embarrassed myself in the middle of the park.

Sung to the tune of “I’m in the money”

I went to the gentleman’s house for the free Egyptian onions starts on Sunday and he was very generous with me. I plan on planting them in 3 different areas—maybe four. One of course will be in the garden but the others will be outside the garden and away from where the geese normally roam since the little stinkers killed my last ones. I cannot tell you how delighted I was to find them. I love green onions to cook with and to eat with a meal as well, but usually I only do 1-2 at a time and the rest of the bunch goes bad. This way I can use the cut and come again system, have my green onions year round and no slime in the fridge.
This was the first time I’d met the man and his wife in person, but we’ve been on the same homesteading group for years. They are a delightful couple just a little older than we are. We chatted with them for about an hour or so and then scooted back home. Once there dh put the onions where the geese couldn’t reach them and then he and ds worked more on cutting down our dead trees and on my can rotators. Both projects are far from finished, but they made progress.
I was ordered into the house to rest because I over did on Saturday and was up coughing all night as a result. I personally think that getting out in the warm sunshine and fresh air helped me a lot today.
We got the taxes mailed while we were out on Sunday as well. Another year of paying in, but it’s done and that is a good thing.
I went to add things to my account and found it had expired while I was ill, so I will be relisting those items again this coming week. They don’t sell if they aren’t listed.
Friday I ran the budget numbers for the week and found we were under budget so I celebrated by paying an extra $35 on the little BOA—only about $1,000 to go on that one. The rest of the under budget cash went into savings for the week we have a shortfall on our budget, at this point, next month.
While looking through Saturday’s mail dh and I shared a big smile, our monthly mortgage statement was in the mail and the original $200,000 bill is now down to $46,000 due to the extra we paid on it before Ben and the determination to stay on the Ben plan during unemployment. The second mortgage that was over $130,000 is below $50,000 too, and that brought a smile to our faces. Crazy how that is isn’t it?
A couple of blog posts went up in the last week as well. Thanks again to all those who visit. I hope you enjoy the posts.
Since I’ve been puny dh has been working hard at trying to keep on top of the housework, but he’s losing the battle. I’ve got to kick this cough soon or the health department may show up.
The threatened storms of last week, and last night never showed up at our house, but did in other parts of OK and MO please pray for all those folks.

Okay, now it’s your turn:

You have demonstrated a knowledge of MLM and an empathy for the members of our club. For that reason, I’d like your messages to be able to post to the board immediately, without being moderated.

But because you haven’t completed your profile, I have to review and approve every message you post, and I can’t even send you a private message about it since you do not have an email address attached to your profile. You should consider this as much an inconvenience for you as it is for me, since you have to wait for me to moderate new messages before your posts will appear. That can sometimes take up to a day, depending upon my personal schedule.

If you would set up a Yahoo or Google/Gmail email address and attach that to your Yahoo profile for this group, your messages would not be delayed, and I could be less concerned about approving messages to the board that would not normally need approving.

Having an email account specifically for online forums would also prevent unwanted contact in your personal email from MLMers who troll these groups looking for prospects.

Please consider setting that up ASAP. You’ll be doing both of us a favor.

I definitely see your point Mark

I look at it from a “what could *I* handle”. Selfish maybe but as a mother, I’m just not sure I could handle watching my son work the business in my house, knowing what I know.

Unfortunately, just because one MLM drops him, it isn’t a guarantee that it’ll induce the epiphany we all hope he has. As one who was screwed by one MLM and simply moved on to the next one – there is often a gradual process of realization. Very gradual. One has to come to it on their own terms.

For me, I knew my family did not support my MLM business. Even though I was in it full throttle, there was always something niggling at me as I so trusted and respected my family (especially my father who is a very resourceful successful businessman). When “I” walked away from one company, even though I started a 2nd MLM, I did start questioning, letting those little things that niggled at me through.

I realize we’re all different and learn via different avenues and have differing tolerance levels. Each person has to evaluate the best course of action for their situation.

Anywhich way its sliced, I hope Jenna’s son wakes up sooner than later.

I am so sorry you are going through this

Actually I feel somewhat responsible. When Quixtar started I was one of the first distributors. I brought 90% of a down line with me from another MLM in August of 1999. The premise was the Amway ‘Kids’ where starting a newer, better, hipper MLM and was just using Amway as a starter so we could all sign people up before it’s September ’99 kick off. I was told that it was a way the children of the Amway empire could later avoid inheritance tax. I don’t know if that is true or not. It was supposed to be an ultra high tech state of the art web mall. The Amway model made it very hard to make money. In fact I would have made almost double in the company I left, that no longer exists any more. I did make a small living but only because I was literally 3rd from the top. My sponsor and his sponsor are long gone. One went full time with motivational speaking and the other consults for an MLM. I had just turned 18. I dropped out of High School at 16 to become a MLM millionaire. When everyone found out the big lie and realized that we were all duped into joining Amway I fled. I never talked to anyone in my down line ever again. I did receive a few threats. I had to start my whole life over again. I started waiting tables in a four star restaurant and made more money than I did in any MLM and I didn’t have to lie about it either. When I was sick of waiting tables I went to Kelly Services. Because of my MLM experience they gave me HR related work and I was able to build a short career out of that before I got married and had kids. Now that my babies are not exactly babies any more I want to get back out into the work force. Guess what? All my experience doesn’t count for anything. All my mom friends are heading back into the workforce and the ones with the master degrees are having a lot better luck than I would. Experience expires, education lasts forever. I would be willing to talk your son down from the ledge. I know what it’s like to have big dreams and to spend all your time trying to make them happen. The reality is I didn’t want all I thought I had wanted. I have a good life now. I don’t fly all over the world in privet jets but who wants to travel with 3 kids anyway?

Hi Jenna, I’ll throw in my 2-cents worth, as a Mom to 7 now-adults

First of all – I agree with Hal – the sooner he hits rock bottom, the sooner he might begin to see that the AMO is only sucking his wallet dry. Depending on where you live, sleeping in a car isn’t the worst thing in the world. If he’s resourceful, he’ll seek a roommate. He can sign up with a Temp Agency. He can apply at McDonald’s. He has options.

Of course, kids that age often like to “flop”. That what my husband calls it: like a goldfish who jumps out of its bowl, and lies flopping, helpless, until you pick it up and put it back in the bowl.
Anyway, with 7 teens, we had a “no flopping” rule; it basically said “we expect you to get yourself out of your own jams”.

Helping your son in whatever manner, is only enabling him in his “addiction”. It’s Tough Love time – and I know that sounds harsh, but *life* is harsh. There are Rules to be followed – like “respect your employer” and “pay your bills”. “Don’t get sucked into a scam” is another good rule, but one that younger folks often don’t understand, which is why the AMOs like to prey on the college kids 🙁

I suppose my rules sound harsh to some folks – all I can offer is 7 gainfully-employed adults, many of them married and have children; and who are decent and caring members of our society. And they still like me 😉

My heart goes out to you for your situation

I was in the exact same situation with my parents. They got in way too deep with an AMO and ended up losing the house I was raised in. I was the only one of my family in a position to help my parents at the time. My parents moved in with me but under some conditions. 1-NO BUSINESS DEALINGS WITH AMWAY. No money spent on the business at all. If they can’t afford rent, they cannot afford their “business” and my dime was not paying for it. Their AMO was not to call the house or come into my house. I made them have a plan to get solvent again and budget to get back on their feet. It was tough and there were times they were not happy with me but what could they do, I held all the cards.

Anyway, they did what they needed to and helped themselves up. They are doing much better now so I am thankful. Just stay strong and keep to the rules. Letting your son move in if he needs help is not your job if he will not take steps to help himself, but if he is willing to do what he needs to, I would help him as long as he understands that. Good Luck and keep in touch with us.

I don’t think its right to let him live in his car

If he needs help, you should offer him a bed and some hot meals – Remember, no matter what, losing a job can be traumatic, so he will need your support. That does not mean “tough love” is not called for. **Just don’t give him any money**.
He may continue to spend what little he has on MLM products – its ok – It will eventually dry up and he will accelerate his path of discovering the truth for himself. The rest of it has already been covered ….

Good luck!

You distill it so well, Hal. Have you done this before?

Make the MLM show its true colors. The bad guy will expose itself for what it is. Once the gravy train of PV/BV stops flowing into his upline’s coffers, YOU CAN BET they’ll flush him without a thought, saying to themselves (or screaming at their steering wheel): “Some Will! Some Won’t! So What!?” God! Just typing SWSWSW gives me the willys!


I think the best thing that could happen at this point is for him to show up on your doorstep. If rent is due on the 1st, he’ll see he has trouble then, but it may depend on how long his landlord takes before evictions on how soon he’ll show up. One interesting thought: I doubt he has many actual “possessions” that he took with him that he hasn’t sold off. If he’s actually evicted, they’ll take all his stuff and put it on the curbside. That would include those stacks and stacks of CDs.

I’d like to see how many of his “friends” help him if that happens. That’s when you can be sure he’ll be coming to you for help.

Mine is to get a 2nd mic

figure out what frequency they use on their wireless PA system and sit outside a door where I can hear them and say extra comments and phrases during “The Plan.” Such as when they say, “Why is this not a pyramid, I’ll tell you why.” Then say, “No, I won’t.
I’ll just badmouth other companies instead.” Then let him continue to give their “answer” and say, “See? I just blamed other companies instead of saying why this wasn’t a pyramid.”

Well, that’s my fantasy on those meetings.

It’s brainwashing and denial

That’s why this is a good chance for him to see it demonstrated. If, when he starts talking about his misfortune, you bring up how supportive and helpful his friends will be, that helps raise his expectations — which we know won’t be met. You’ve been telling him and it doesn’t work. This is the time when his friends themselves will show him.

My question is this

“Who knows — who REALLY knows — what’s going on in the situation?” I’ll put ALL of my dough on Mom!

I’d risk alienating all three of my sons — their ‘friendship’ — I’d risk it ALL if it meant keeping them out of WHAT I KNOW to be a malicious, bruising, debilitating group who DOESN’T CARE A WHIT about my sons’ lives and welfare (other than how these can be sculpted to serve the upline vampires). No freaking way.

I totally get that you can’t push a rope (by ‘having/compelling him to read’ Merchants of Deception, or this board, etc. as I mentioned in an earlier post) so, perhaps I expect too much, too fast. I still maintain that these are ‘tools in your belt,’ so to speak. I also like the strategy of ‘seeing what good friends he has’ — waiting to see who swoops in to pick up Matt and tuck him under their wing.

I’m with Lauren(?) on this, tho: it’s addiction and withdrawal. I wouldn’t allow even “a little bit of drugs”, just “a tiny flask of alcohol”, etc., while I was financially (and in this case, somewhat emotionally) responsible for him. He can hate me forever, but it’s the most compassionate and loving thing I can do for him: set the right example.

Hell, his programming has already set you and him at odds. But your relationship as mom can trump ALL of the hateful gobbledygook he’s been fed — at least that’s what I believe (or hope!). Do the right thing by standing on the principles you set forth already. You’ve been right all along. I think holding your ground lovingly but forcibly will be best in the long run. But it seems it’s always the ‘short run’ that distracts us and causes us pause.

Whatever you decide, we’re pulling for you here.

This isn’t that different from what I said

True, I’m saying don’t let him spend money on it, but we’ve seen over and over that once a person stops spending money on an MLM, the MLM will drop them. While it may be an important distinction, my thinking is by banning the spending and not the MLM, the kid will learn, and quite rapidly, that they want his money more than him. The connection is broken, but by the MLM and all his “dear friends” and not by his parents.

Thanks to all for your quick responses and your support

It is interesting that Lauren brought up the drug addict reference. I certainly compare his Quixtar to an addiction. And you’re right, Lauren, I wouldn’t let just a little drugs in the house or contact with a dealer. Before Matt moved out we put our foot down about having any meetings with prospects or even having product delivered here. That’s why he moved out. And Queen has a point about being a dream stealer. He already uses those terms about his father and I.
Hal, I have pointed out that he needs to see if his friends will help him, if they are concerned about his success in life as well as Quixtar. He blows me off when I bring that up. He is so blind. Or is it just denial? I am going to have to get my cult book out again and read it. I know that he is brainwashed, yet I guess I forget the depth of it.

And to Daniel, as far as AMO’s go. I have daytime fantasy’s about walking into a WWDB function and tossing a grenade on the stage.

I will let you know what happens. Fortunatly, or maybe not, Matt is personable and employable, so I may not have him on my doorstep. But I will continue to struggle to recognize a child who has turned into a lying, half-truth spitting, manipulative person that I hardly recognize. So sad.

So sorry you are having to deal with this

I can’t even imagine how disheartening and disturbing it must be to watch your son go through this and deal with the repercussions in the family.

I was trying to think about what I’d do if it was my son and as much as I always agree with Hal on things, I think I might have to go with the NO MLM in my house route. Period. I mean, I’m just not sure I could do it any other way…to watch it (the brain sucking, mind effbomb) attack my son like a cancer.

Yep, I’d def have to go that route. No MLM in no way, shape or form IN my house. Those are the rules. AND if I give him ANY money at all, then none of his money can be used for MLM, while he’s in my house.

Harsh maybe but if he was an alcoholic or drug addict, I would not allow just a little bit of drugs in my home…or be okay with paying his cell phone bill so he can call his drug dealer for drugs, etc. Nope, not happening.

I hope that the decisions you need to make come easily. Stay strong! You are not now and never will be the “bad guy” even if you have to make the hard decisions.

I’m in almost the identical situation

you are except my son has been at scamway for 1 1/2 years and is living at home. I have to disagree with Daniel. Asking your ds to read books like Merchants of Deception or even peruse this list is probably way beyond what he is capable of absorbing right now. I think what’s important is to let your son know that you love him and that you are there for him. I like Hal’s idea about emphasizing how he’s lucky to have such good friends and you’re sure they’ll help him out.

As for his living situation, I don’t see the point in restricting his involvement in ‘the business’ if he moves home or if you’re financially supporting him. It will only alienate him from you. You’ll be a dream stealer, a loser and every other negative word that scamway has taught him to flush the people who really care about him. Certainly, though, you can ask him to pay rent and contribute to the household expenses. If you are considering helping him out with living expenses, I would pay any funds directly to the landlord, utility company, etc. It’s just too difficult and contentious to track how a 24 yo spends his money if you’re giving cash or writing checks to him.

As for living in his car, it doesn’t sound that bad to me. But then, I have *no* idea what type of neighborhood he would be in. If it’s an unsafe, urban area, I’d be concerened but a well-lighted, highly trafficked urban area, a quiet suburban one or any rural area would probably be relatively safe.

Good luck and do let us know what happens.

Hi, I haven’t posted much, but I felt compelled to chime in, here.

Someone says, “AMO” and my ire gets up!

Of course not. But if he was using heroin and refused to get clean would you let him have his drugs in your house? Your son is an addict. He’s in trouble. SOMEone who knows what’s going on has to find the strength within and set the ground rules. Not out of meaness, but out of love.

I say, “Your house: your rules.” Time for some tough love. He needs detox and pronto.

The money he pours into scAmway products and all other “support” (i.e., indoctrination) materials stops as well. Get him (and keep him) away from the brain-sucking scum of his upline. Tell him it’s either that or to go out and buy new bed sheets for the back seat of the car. Period.

Point him to — and have him read — “Merchants of Deception” — an absolutely gripping read by Eric Scheibeler, a former Emerald, who details the nightmare that Fred Harteis (his creepy, smarmy upline) slowly and methodically snared him into. Make sure you read it too, if you haven’t already. As a recovering AMO survivor, I can’t say enough about how penetrating and cathartic this is.

That said, be ready for some heavy denial and anger and depression (on his part) and — if you’re lucky enough — he’ll pull through this MUCH wiser (if not more jaded, sadly).

Need I mention to have him browse this board as part of his (room and) board? Of course, if he was at all serious, he’s pretty far into it at three years. I don’t know if anyone can be ‘shocked’ or ‘shaken’ (or even ‘tough loved’) into their senses about those AMO bastards. You’d have had a tough time convincing ME that I was being brainwashed and duped. But then, you’re not my mother. (For the record, I sponsored my mother and father — bless their hearts for forgiving me!).

I’d just do anything I could out of love, patience and compassion for your son. For the past few years his eyes have been on a ball he’s been chasing, running headlong into the street. You’re in a perfect position to see the truck coming at him and I’d do whatever I could to help him see the real world. Of course, he has to be ready to see it. It took me over six years. Sorry if this sounds harsh or terse. I’ve been down that road and I’d do practically anything to keep others from staying involved in an AMO for any longer than was their destiny.

He needs a level head — a rock in his storm, because goodness knows his fair weather Quixtar buds won’t be there for him.

Best wishes to you and your son. Please keep mlmsurviorsclub updated. And please, PLEASE don’t cave on him.

As bad as this is, and it is bad, I see it as good

Why? Because he’s now within a hair’s breadth of rock bottom. When he talks about this, don’t give him time to ask for help. When he says it’s bad start pointing out that he’s lucky to have such a network of friends who can help him at at time like this.

Then you’ve got a FINE line to draw. On the one hand you don’t want to play them up so he’s ashamed to ask for help, but on the other, you do want to “assume” they’ll do what good friends would do and help him out.
Then when it’s time, go with the, “Oh? But they’re your friends.
They’ve said so and they’ve said they want you to succeed, so why aren’t they helping you when you need it? Why won’t your friends help you when you need it the most?”

In writing there’s a saying, “Show me, don’t tell me.” This will give you the chance to show your son, instead of telling him, that his “friends” are not going to help him unless he is spending money on tools.

Do not tell him what to do. He’s a big boy and that’ll just create resentment and lead him to want to prove to you how wrong you are.

HOWEVER, and this is important, you have not only the right, but the responsibility, to specify the terms of letting him either move back in or get any help from you. It is only proper that you specify that if you’re going to provide him money to, say, pay the rent, that you know it WILL be spent on rent and his own money from unemployment (or elsewhere) will not be spent on his MLM. If you pay $100 for his rent, and the turns around and spends $50 on his MLM, then you’re basically enabling him to spend money on that instead of keeping alive.

Of course, if you let him move back in, then you can have stricter control. I would not recommend anything like telling him “No MLM!” But you can point out that as long as he lives in your house, rather than pay rent, me must be using his money for utilities, job search expenses, and so on. The idea would be to not ban the MLM or prevent it, but to restrict the money flow (since he doesn’t have money) so he sees what happens once he can’t keep financing their lifestyle.

But yes, if he chooses to keep spending money on the MLM, then don’t help him financially or let him move in — but do be aware of safety issues if he’s sleeping in his car. Basically, the faster he runs out of money to spend, the better off you are.

I need help staying strong

as I watch my Quixtar addled son hit bottom. Quick recap, 21 yr. old son, 3+ years in “the business”.
Lives on his own and has for a year, been working in a bank for about 9 months. Has spent evey extra dime he has on an AMO (WWDB)and tons of Amway product for himself. Lives in a suit, alienated all of his friends. Working on alienating his extended family. Well, he lost his job yesterday. I forsee a difficult time finding another one, given the economy and the fact he was told by his upline that he didn’t have to go to college to be successful, so he dropped out. My friends think I should tell him he has to stop ordering product and doing any sort of Quixtar business. If he chooses not to do that, I should let him sleep in his car. Because we can be sure his upline isn’t going to take him in. I can’t fathom letting my child sleep in his car! Do I have to take it that far???

A similar thing happened to my son

A few months after he got involved with Scamway, he was diagnosed with bipolar disorder. The two months before he was diagnosed, he was in a full-blown mania, drinking lots of the Amway caffeine energy drinks, not sleeping, talking a mile a minute, calling everyone he knew and recruiting them for Scamway, being totally financially irresponsible, etc., etc. It was a nightmare. Once he got stablized and went back to college, his upline told him there was nothing wrong with him, he didn’t need to take his medications, just use lots of the Scamway vitamins. Within a month, he was depressed and unable to function in school and dropped out of college. At least he’s at home now, on his medications and relatively stable emotionally. Unfortunately, he’s still involved with Scamway. 🙁

Hang in there, Jenna!

If its any consolation, age really isn’t too much of a factor. Many folks, myself included were much older when we got sucked in. Many different age groups are targeted by different distributor forums (young adults, moms, etc).

Just keep on doing what you can and what you feel is best. Its all you can do.

There’s a reason they call it

TOUGH love although I wonder which side it’s tougher on. Please know we are praying for you and Matt.

And as far as his upline telling him to stop his meds, I wonder what the law would have to say about someone practicing medicine without a license. The next thing is to prove it.

And THAT’S why the AMOs like to target college-age kids

They’re still starry-eyed kids who want to believe what they hear; yet more often than not, Mommy and Daddy will bail them out of their jams.
There have been so many Moms with tales similar to yours (kids getting sucked into AMOs) that it makes me want to throw up.

Hang in there!!

Of course he will

But you don’t want to put it in those terms to him. If you do (“You come to Mommy, but you’ll take her money,”) then it makes it harder for him to come to you for help when he hits bottom.
Oh, and make sure he does not see a pattern of you saying, “I told you so.” You want to make it easy for him to come to you when it falls apart.

This is a good time to point out

that he has a LOT of friends that think highly of him, that they know how well their program works, so they should be more than happy to loan him the money if they really believe in him. The idea is to try to tie their belief in him with actions they can do to prove they believe in him. If they’re so sure he’ll make it, why won’t they help him in such a hard time as this, when some help from them and the free time to work The Plan all day should be the perfect chance for him to break through?

Set it up so the unspoken question is why won’t they put their money where their mouth is?

I’m not saying that was right or wrong to tell him

I don’t know. I can see how he’d get upset. From his point of view, he’s down and knows one thing will save him — but it hasn’t saved him yet. He knows that, so any reminder that he’s wrong is going to just set him off. Another way to put it in the future might be to point out that his actions, such as not putting any in savings or anticipating contingencies like this, or not planning ahead on some of these things have given you concern about what his financial management skills. You can bring up a lot of these points without even touching on the money pit.

Credit, now, is hard for anyone to get

That’s a result of all the easy credit for so long that caused the problems we’re in now. But he won’t listen to that. Again, as painful as this all is (and my heart does go out to you on this — so while I may sound dispassionate in my responses, it’s because I want to help, and not because I don’t empathize), I see it as a good sign. He is blaming you, which means at some level he knows you’re right — just not at a level where he can accept it. This is a form of denial, but at least it’s aimed at you.

This is a good time (okay, not so good a time) to ask the “Why?” questions. “I don’t understand. What did we do that has hurt your credit rating?” or, “Are they giving you reasons why your credit is bad?” or, “Did they give you a reason for turning you down?” Credit card companies won’t answer questions like that, but if he applies for loans at a local bank, he might get answers.

This brings up a thought, which may or may not be a good idea, so wait until you hear feedback from others on this before doing it. Suggest that if he’s having trouble getting credit, he may try to get a small business loan from a local bank — or get support for one from the SBA.
He’ll get turned down, of course, but it might be interesting to see what happens when official institutions tell him he can’t get credit because MLMs are not viable.

Oh good job!

It sounds like he’s being pretty selfish (young adults seem to go through this phase – it does pass); PLUS he’s being encouraged by those around him in the AMO who are possibly panicked by the thought that he might not be able to spend as much of his/(your) money on tools and functions.

But shutting off his supply of “expendable income” (yours) is likely to result in exactly what he fears and YOU want: him becoming “persona non grata” in the eyes of his upline because he’s “Not following the System”. If he’s not pumping money into the system – they’ll drop him like a stone. They DON’T care that he’s
nice/smart/hardworking…whatever. They only care that he keeps the money flowing into the pockets of his upline. Period.

The AMO functions best when your sons fails. He pumps a lot of money into their coffers; and they don’t have to share it with him because he never got to that “magic” level where the kickbacks start.

And *I’d* keep bringing up the Biz 😉 If he was a drug addict, would you stop telling him to leave the drugs alone???

Best wishes!

Just had a huge fight with Matt

because I will not include him in my AMEX account and get him a card. He can’t get credit, which btw is somehow our fault, or maybe it’s because he has bounced lots of checks and doesn’t have much in his bank account. I told him that I did not trust his judgement with money. When he was working he should have had lots of extra income, but he threw it away on product and his AMO.
When I tried to gently suggest that to him, he blew up. He told me I was not supposed to bring up “the business”.

I suggested he get a secured credit card, but he did not wasnt to tie up the $$. I told him if he had an emergency he could call me, he reply was he didn’t want to go to his mommy. But he’ll take mommy’s credit card!!!!!

I’m trying!!!

Guy was reading or listening to e-books

more than I slept or was in class, now he’s got so much “knowledge” about internet marketing that he’s spent the last 3 years trying to make a living off of it. First two years, about 2 grand down (made like 100$ off one place but didn’t even continue with it because it only had ”two levels” *cough* pyramid scheme).

last I heard he was trying to use traffic exchanges to try and pimp out someone elses product, only people I see making money (and more than a fraction of minimum wage for the time put in) are the propaganda people launching the over-all “system” then walking away 6 months later to do the exact same thing with a new logo.

It’s like there’s 20 people that each own a slaughter house, the hobbyist who wants to make some extra coin (or make his own business) look at payday loans online and the masses just keep getting herded into the houses to get cleaned of cash. Then a new coat of paint on the house and voila, new batch of suckers to clean.

You think people would fall for MLMs as much if we didn’t have a variety of suspiciously similarly built ”fund raising” techniques used since elementary school?

I’m looking for information about Usana

My sister-in-law is involved with the group and she is pressuring my mother-in-law to get blood drawn so they can look for things she is allergic to that might be the cause of her colitis. This sounds really weird to me. It costs an initial $500.00. They sent her a kit and a Dr’s order to get blood drawn. I think this goes way beyound pushing vitamins and skin care products. Has anyone had any experience with Usana? What are they settting her up for?

If I may interject

Yes, for many or even most of us, scientific method is the way to prove what works and we take meds that work based on clinical trials for efficacy and safety.

However, the placebo effect, which is what you’re referring to when you talk about true believers, is a known effect of some treatments and has its own validity. Placebos can be efficacious in many situations. While I don’t believe and would not benefit, there are many who do and western medical science takes it seriously.

Please note that I’m not advocating here – not in the least. But for some kinds of ailments, pain, in particular, placebos work.

Again, I’m not advocating the use of magnets for anything or anyone.

I entered the wrong name (yours) when I was writing

sorry That was meant for Mick’s sarcastic self. Sorry sweetie… Still yet, what exactly is going to make another persons case study more valid than mine. At the end of the day, we are all professionals with professional opinions, so I don’t really see the point in people asking for citings. If somebody has a made up mind that something doesn’t work, the ONLY thing they are going to do is search around for information that support their assumption, just the same as me saying that is does work and if you google magnetic therapy alot of things will show that other people have had results as well. The only thing I can suggest is for people to try it for themselves with an open mind then you will have an opinion about your experience. If you go into a situation looking ONLY for the negative that’s you’ll get even if positive things happen and thats with ANY situation.

I’m not going to sit here and entertain you or your foolishness

Are you so small minded that you think that medical doctors are the only people here that have the answer to everything?
You have a traditional western mentality, so really nothing that I say to you is going to be good enough so why waste the energy. If you truly want to open your mind and learn something new, I have no problem with educating you sweetie, but I’m simply not going to waste my precious time on non-sense.. Some people choose to live a box and are afraid to hear about or respect the validity of anything that does not fit in their way of thinking. I say this biggest BALL of proof anyone can have is to experience a situation for yourself, then you can say that it did or did not work for you. How can you go into the world and tell people what steak taste like if you’ve never taken a bit? Silly isn’t it? Even if you may not like the taste, you can’t talk or judge it until you have experienced it for yourself and even then one can’t give an overall stitched in stone judgment for EVERYBODY, you can only make a judgment call for yourself. Lets wise up and be
intelligent beings already. Magnetic Therapy did work for Anaya and her 2 case studies, along with the clients that get the service. Did it work in the same time frame? NO
Did I have to do different techniques to each client to get the same results? YES…That’s proof that every body’s anatomy is different. What works for one may not work for the other but the same results can be accomplished but in a different way.

I am the proof Hal

Good enough for you or do you want to throw what its done for me under the bus. Not only did a perform a case study on myself since I was having back pain issues, I also did a study on two of my clients, one who suffers from fibromyaglia and the other that suffers from migraines. Sorry to inform you, but magnetic therapy work for us all. In addition to doing magnetic therapy, we also change our way of life, which is why I am ALL NATURAL!! Do I believe that one product or treatment will solves a persons issues? Absolutely not? That would be ludicrous. I feel like its a combination of your way of living. You take a pill to get rid of a headache, but you aren’t really solving your problem unless you figure out whats causing your headaches in the first place; otherwise you’ll be in the same situation again with the same results again…headache, pop a pill, go on your way.

If you know whats causing the headache wouldn’t it be smart to just avoid the cause, duh!!
Magnetic therapy helped take away my pain, but the cause was a result of being hit in a car accident years ago which left my vertebrae improperly aligned. Most car accidents victims suffer from back pain. After going to a chiropractor and getting properly aligned I no longer have the back pain period. Prior to going to the chiropractor, magnetic therapy helped to releas my pain until I found out what was causing the pain. What do you think massage practitioners do fluff and buff? We study anatomy and the cause and effect of pain. At least the smart legit practitioners do.
Ok…Point proven…moving on. I could go on for days with documented proof and explaining the science behind ANY natural modality that I use with my alterantive practice, but my time is valuable. I’ve worked with some of the best,which is why I am an expert in what I do.
I don’t an MLM to make money, I do that any way, and never approached the company for those purposes. I have a booming practice because Im good at what I do, knowledgable, and I produce results.

Thank You Chip

I totally appreciate that feed back. I have found a company out of Canada that I purchase items for. To the gentleman who needs proof, I use magentic therapy for back pain, so I not only do I perform magnetic therapy to my clients as a service, Im also proof that it works. You point is so true, its not the point of whether the products work or not. Hey, to each is its own. As a practitioner, my ONLY point is this company sells items that are above market value which I think is awful along with the fact the way they manipulate people to get involved is out of order.

To the gentleman who needs proof:
Alternative medicine is always going to be questionable in the west so thats neither here nor there. Its obviously doing alot of good for alot of people. Let me be clear, while we can ask for proof for everything, some things just IS!! You really wouldn’t know one way of another if you’ve never tried it with a open mind. Im a holistic practitioner for a reason, and my business wouldn’t be doing well if people were not getting results, even the skeptics.
My business has nothing to do with Nikken. I wouldn’t dare manipulate my clients with such garbage. This company has taken a legit modality and turning it into something horrible. I only got involved because I thought that I found more products that would help benefit my clients well-being. Once I got involved, i found out that the products came at an ridiculous price. I dont advertise anything to anybody without doing a case study first, because just like any other legit therapist, I need to know that what Im offering works. In addition to ALL that, I also understand that everybody’s anatomy is different. What may work for me may not necessarily work for the next person. Some people like the results of advil while others like tylenol…same point. Most of the cridics that write articles bashing alternative health, has never tried alternative health, so there opinions are meaningless.
I say do knock it until you try it and 1 day trials don’t count.
Thanks again Chip….for your positive feedback.

Actually, Hal, this blog exists for the (nearly) sole purpose of

CLAIMING that MLM is not a viable business model and that most people who get involved with it will lose money. We are making a claim, so any time someone comes in here making a claim to the contrary, they are, de facto, asking us to support our claim. We have, IMO, an obligation to do that, as best we can.

However, that does not diminish Mick’s assertion that someone whocomes into this blog making claims also has a burden of proof. If I’m going to claim that a claim you’ve made is wrong, it’s up to me to support my side of the argument. You support you claims, and I support mine.

Ordinarily, supporting a negative claim (that something is NOT so) is more difficult than supporting a positive one. However, we have thousands of posts here supporting our side. There’s no reason that a newcomer should be exempt from supporting his/her side as well.

IMO, the question with regard to Nikken, as I believe it was posed, is not whether or not the magnets work, but whether or not Nikken is a valid money-making endeavor. My experience, both studied and anecdotal, is that it is not.

And the big question people should be asking as they consider getting involved is why a company would be seeking out people to become salesmen for their products rather than customers for them? Why do MLM companies like AmQuix, Nikken, Melaleuca and others rely on direct sales rather than traditional advertising to sell their products?
Could it be that their products would not sell in a traditional marketplace and that they have to manipulate people in order to develop a customer base for their products? If all your salespeople are buying the products but doing very little retailing, who are the REAL customers? And why should it be a surprise when the salespeople can’t make a living selling their MLM product?

In short, who cares whether the magnets work? That really isn’t the central point of this blog.

IMHO it makes absolutely no difference in case of Nikken if magnets work or not

And the discussion of efficacy of magnets just distracts from the large pyramid scheme run by the company. I have personally known Nikken “consultants” that made it to platinum after 5 yrs of living and breathing everything “Nikken”, and today, they are just about broke!!

Nikken somehow specializes in flying below the regulatory and news Radar, but takes its consultants for BIG $$.

So while we can all disagree on whether magnets work, or studies or lack thereof, lets not loose sight of the MLM aspect of this discussion – and I think we can all agree – the products don’t matter…

As for the help asked for here by Anaya, I think we would get much further focusing on the MLM aspect, rather than trying to shake her belief in alternative medicine or magnets.

So Anaya, here’s the long and short of it – If you like Nikken’s super expensive products, thats one thing. If you are thinking about the business, know that you have to sign up for autoship(they also have super expensive vitamins – all top of the line of course :), meal replacements, shakes, bracelets, air purifiers etc, and sooner or later, you will own them all ) – They also have this “Wellness” home that you will have to buy at more than $5000. In addition, they have “mandatory” training before you can get to a level where you get any commissions. In short, my opinion is, walk away!!

If you do like magnets, there are other non-MLM vendors of magnetic insoles and such that you can google and get for waaaay less money that you would spend with Nikken….

Good luck!

No “magnets” do not work

Cite a study or two to back up the claim or please do not make it. It is very simple – stories do not mean evidence. Don’t come up with the “search google” argument – YOU made the assertion YOU provide the studies that prove your claim. As for the generality about the medical profession – you seem to have bought into the propaganda hook line and sinker without even stopping to wonder why. Did you study to be a doctor?

It is the willingness to be persuaded to swallow total tripe that leads people into MLMs.

Yes I do read the professional journals for my trade

As far as the effects of magnetic therapy, yes they do in fact work. I dont want to get preachy about eastern/chinese medicine but if you google magnetic therapy and read on its history you will find out the scientific information behind it. Being that our world (United States) does not teach us about natural healing metholodies, is not uncommon to hear feedback on skeptism on methods outside popping a pill for everything. In the states doctors treat the symptoms and not the actual problem which in return does not usually fix your problem. But why would they? If we knew how to take of ourselves without all the drugs, man made drugs at that, they would be out of business. As rich as our country is suppose to be, we have the WORST health compared to ANY other country in the world. Now why is that? This pertains to not just physical health, but mental health as well.

I said I wasnt going to get preachy…sorry. Its my profession. Kinda hard to keep a response short with you have so much knowledge on the subject at hand. My whole point is simply, just because a healing method does not refer to popping a pill, does not mean it doesn’t work. We all have natural energy healing properties. Rub your hands together and feel them warm up. Thats energy..You cant see it, but you know it exist because you can feel it.. The same with magnets. You may not see what it does to the body when you rub them on your body, but if you try it you will get some effects. The higher the guas of the magnet the stronger the effect it gives. Some situation may require 1 magnet where other situations may need 3 or 4 to give the same effect. Magnetic therapy needs to be performed by someone who knows what they are doing and understands the science behind it all, which is why I dont understand why this company has every Joe blow palying
practitioner to the public, and the products are OVERLY priced. In my opinion thats just being plan old manipulative.

Well that didnt get me? I’ll pay $75 to get inside a company and really find out whats going on. I look at it as my payment to do the research.
Anaya LMP, NCTM, Reiki, AMTA Professional

My involvement with Nikken is somewhat anecdotal, but I’ll toss it in and try to be brief

First, I commend you for doing some due diligence after the initial “HOLY COW! THIS IS GONNA MAKE ME RICH!!” phase subsided. I wish I would have done the same with my involvement in Amway and an Amway Motivational Organization.

Second, one of my brothers joined Nikken and spoke, too, of ultra high-priced products, rationalizing that THESE magnets were somehow better than (so-called) ‘normal’ magnets. He gave a wacky explanation, which I recall sounded like so much sales jargon that I — as his brother, mind you (and a thespian) — turned into a vignette about “At Nikken, we harvest only the BEST and BRIGHTEST electrons from the energy fields and valleys of atomic nuclei!!” which sort of pissed him off. But, hey, what are younger brothers for? And, besides, his rationale was obviously canned and avoided the issue. He spoke of having to ‘invest’ $2,500 (as I recall) in order ‘to REALLY get it going’ and I KNEW right then, this was a front-loaded sponsoring scheme.

He sponsored my dad, and both he and my dad swore by the products (as vehemently as they swore AT the prices) but (of course) “…distributors get a discount and, besides, when you sponsor (err…”help”) enough people it’s like getting these magnets for FREE.
Plus, you can make a TON of money. I mean, who do you want to help feel better or who do you know who wants to make a TON of money? Let’s call them now!…” Yeah. I think I know the rest.

Third, my brother and dad lost all their “investment” of $2,500 each, sponsored no one and had a slew of magnets they were wearing and “demo-ing” for months afterward, trying to create interest so they could sell their over-priced inventory and recoup at least SOME of their loss from the front-loaded bonus level “buy-in” scam.

Fourth, Nikken reeks of the putrid stench of “MLM” — and there are PLENTY of posts (way more detailed and succinct than mine could ever be) that thoroughly and finitely explain why MLMs, by their very nature, are bad business models and benefit the very few at the expense of the very many. Please continue to search MLMs business model on this site (and virtually ANY post by paine_wwweb_r on the topic!).

Fifth, take my story at face value only and do more research yourself before you part with THOUSANDS for (what I think can be proven by surfing this board) is just another scam to take advantage of the well-intentioned.

You are SO FAR ahead of the curve on this. Keep digging. Never stop asking questions.

All the best

Can any of you tell me if you’ve ever heard about a company called Nikken

If so can u tell me what u might know about it. I just recently signed up with this company and I think I may have made a mistake. I’m a holistic massage practitioner and was impressed with the thought of getting involved with a company that sold products that would help people to relieve pain w/o taking medication. As I sit here and read the post, I feel like I have been bamboozeled!! I these people dug for information about my personal interest and used it to get me involved in the business. Im usually pretty good on picking up on slicksters trying to run con games. Intuition is something else. I guess I haven’t been had like most people because as of now, I’ve only spent the $75 distributor fee which isn’t too bad considering the fact that I wanted the Magboys that came in the kit which is $69 in retail. After being introduced to company and signing up they were trying to get me to spend another $2600 and a bunch a magnetic products. Being that my background is in eastern/chinese medicine, I can say proudly that magnetic therapy does work but the products with this company, I found out after doing some research is extremely OVER priced!! My gut feeling tells me not to spend another dime with these people. My goal is to help people not manipulate people which is what I see happening as I observe this process now that Im in. Since I didnt spend all of this money immediately, my socall upline don’t reach out to me to socall help me build my business. I also told my upline that I wasnt interested in trying to call everybody I knew to get them to sign up for this business and then turn around and have to spend thousands of dollars for product. Dont these people understand that we are ij a recession? Seems like they could care less. Following my gut feeling, Im not spending ANY more money on a company that helps to break peoples pocket book rather than help build it.

What do you guys know about this company? Is it the same old mess like any other mlm?

All feedback is appreciated.