There’s a reason they call it

TOUGH love although I wonder which side it’s tougher on. Please know we are praying for you and Matt.

And as far as his upline telling him to stop his meds, I wonder what the law would have to say about someone practicing medicine without a license. The next thing is to prove it.

And THAT’S why the AMOs like to target college-age kids

They’re still starry-eyed kids who want to believe what they hear; yet more often than not, Mommy and Daddy will bail them out of their jams.
There have been so many Moms with tales similar to yours (kids getting sucked into AMOs) that it makes me want to throw up.

Hang in there!!

Of course he will

But you don’t want to put it in those terms to him. If you do (“You come to Mommy, but you’ll take her money,”) then it makes it harder for him to come to you for help when he hits bottom.
Oh, and make sure he does not see a pattern of you saying, “I told you so.” You want to make it easy for him to come to you when it falls apart.

This is a good time to point out

that he has a LOT of friends that think highly of him, that they know how well their program works, so they should be more than happy to loan him the money if they really believe in him. The idea is to try to tie their belief in him with actions they can do to prove they believe in him. If they’re so sure he’ll make it, why won’t they help him in such a hard time as this, when some help from them and the free time to work The Plan all day should be the perfect chance for him to break through?

Set it up so the unspoken question is why won’t they put their money where their mouth is?

I’m not saying that was right or wrong to tell him

I don’t know. I can see how he’d get upset. From his point of view, he’s down and knows one thing will save him — but it hasn’t saved him yet. He knows that, so any reminder that he’s wrong is going to just set him off. Another way to put it in the future might be to point out that his actions, such as not putting any in savings or anticipating contingencies like this, or not planning ahead on some of these things have given you concern about what his financial management skills. You can bring up a lot of these points without even touching on the money pit.

Credit, now, is hard for anyone to get

That’s a result of all the easy credit for so long that caused the problems we’re in now. But he won’t listen to that. Again, as painful as this all is (and my heart does go out to you on this — so while I may sound dispassionate in my responses, it’s because I want to help, and not because I don’t empathize), I see it as a good sign. He is blaming you, which means at some level he knows you’re right — just not at a level where he can accept it. This is a form of denial, but at least it’s aimed at you.

This is a good time (okay, not so good a time) to ask the “Why?” questions. “I don’t understand. What did we do that has hurt your credit rating?” or, “Are they giving you reasons why your credit is bad?” or, “Did they give you a reason for turning you down?” Credit card companies won’t answer questions like that, but if he applies for loans at a local bank, he might get answers.

This brings up a thought, which may or may not be a good idea, so wait until you hear feedback from others on this before doing it. Suggest that if he’s having trouble getting credit, he may try to get a small business loan from a local bank — or get support for one from the SBA.
He’ll get turned down, of course, but it might be interesting to see what happens when official institutions tell him he can’t get credit because MLMs are not viable.

Oh good job!

It sounds like he’s being pretty selfish (young adults seem to go through this phase – it does pass); PLUS he’s being encouraged by those around him in the AMO who are possibly panicked by the thought that he might not be able to spend as much of his/(your) money on tools and functions.

But shutting off his supply of “expendable income” (yours) is likely to result in exactly what he fears and YOU want: him becoming “persona non grata” in the eyes of his upline because he’s “Not following the System”. If he’s not pumping money into the system – they’ll drop him like a stone. They DON’T care that he’s
nice/smart/hardworking…whatever. They only care that he keeps the money flowing into the pockets of his upline. Period.

The AMO functions best when your sons fails. He pumps a lot of money into their coffers; and they don’t have to share it with him because he never got to that “magic” level where the kickbacks start.

And *I’d* keep bringing up the Biz 😉 If he was a drug addict, would you stop telling him to leave the drugs alone???

Best wishes!

Just had a huge fight with Matt

because I will not include him in my AMEX account and get him a card. He can’t get credit, which btw is somehow our fault, or maybe it’s because he has bounced lots of checks and doesn’t have much in his bank account. I told him that I did not trust his judgement with money. When he was working he should have had lots of extra income, but he threw it away on product and his AMO.
When I tried to gently suggest that to him, he blew up. He told me I was not supposed to bring up “the business”.

I suggested he get a secured credit card, but he did not wasnt to tie up the $$. I told him if he had an emergency he could call me, he reply was he didn’t want to go to his mommy. But he’ll take mommy’s credit card!!!!!

I’m trying!!!

Guy was reading or listening to e-books

more than I slept or was in class, now he’s got so much “knowledge” about internet marketing that he’s spent the last 3 years trying to make a living off of it. First two years, about 2 grand down (made like 100$ off one place but didn’t even continue with it because it only had ”two levels” *cough* pyramid scheme).

last I heard he was trying to use traffic exchanges to try and pimp out someone elses product, only people I see making money (and more than a fraction of minimum wage for the time put in) are the propaganda people launching the over-all “system” then walking away 6 months later to do the exact same thing with a new logo.

It’s like there’s 20 people that each own a slaughter house, the hobbyist who wants to make some extra coin (or make his own business) look at payday loans online and the masses just keep getting herded into the houses to get cleaned of cash. Then a new coat of paint on the house and voila, new batch of suckers to clean.

You think people would fall for MLMs as much if we didn’t have a variety of suspiciously similarly built ”fund raising” techniques used since elementary school?

I’m looking for information about Usana

My sister-in-law is involved with the group and she is pressuring my mother-in-law to get blood drawn so they can look for things she is allergic to that might be the cause of her colitis. This sounds really weird to me. It costs an initial $500.00. They sent her a kit and a Dr’s order to get blood drawn. I think this goes way beyound pushing vitamins and skin care products. Has anyone had any experience with Usana? What are they settting her up for?

If I may interject

Yes, for many or even most of us, scientific method is the way to prove what works and we take meds that work based on clinical trials for efficacy and safety.

However, the placebo effect, which is what you’re referring to when you talk about true believers, is a known effect of some treatments and has its own validity. Placebos can be efficacious in many situations. While I don’t believe and would not benefit, there are many who do and western medical science takes it seriously.

Please note that I’m not advocating here – not in the least. But for some kinds of ailments, pain, in particular, placebos work.

Again, I’m not advocating the use of magnets for anything or anyone.

I entered the wrong name (yours) when I was writing

sorry That was meant for Mick’s sarcastic self. Sorry sweetie… Still yet, what exactly is going to make another persons case study more valid than mine. At the end of the day, we are all professionals with professional opinions, so I don’t really see the point in people asking for citings. If somebody has a made up mind that something doesn’t work, the ONLY thing they are going to do is search around for information that support their assumption, just the same as me saying that is does work and if you google magnetic therapy alot of things will show that other people have had results as well. The only thing I can suggest is for people to try it for themselves with an open mind then you will have an opinion about your experience. If you go into a situation looking ONLY for the negative that’s you’ll get even if positive things happen and thats with ANY situation.

I’m not going to sit here and entertain you or your foolishness

Are you so small minded that you think that medical doctors are the only people here that have the answer to everything?
You have a traditional western mentality, so really nothing that I say to you is going to be good enough so why waste the energy. If you truly want to open your mind and learn something new, I have no problem with educating you sweetie, but I’m simply not going to waste my precious time on non-sense.. Some people choose to live a box and are afraid to hear about or respect the validity of anything that does not fit in their way of thinking. I say this biggest BALL of proof anyone can have is to experience a situation for yourself, then you can say that it did or did not work for you. How can you go into the world and tell people what steak taste like if you’ve never taken a bit? Silly isn’t it? Even if you may not like the taste, you can’t talk or judge it until you have experienced it for yourself and even then one can’t give an overall stitched in stone judgment for EVERYBODY, you can only make a judgment call for yourself. Lets wise up and be
intelligent beings already. Magnetic Therapy did work for Anaya and her 2 case studies, along with the clients that get the service. Did it work in the same time frame? NO
Did I have to do different techniques to each client to get the same results? YES…That’s proof that every body’s anatomy is different. What works for one may not work for the other but the same results can be accomplished but in a different way.

I am the proof Hal

Good enough for you or do you want to throw what its done for me under the bus. Not only did a perform a case study on myself since I was having back pain issues, I also did a study on two of my clients, one who suffers from fibromyaglia and the other that suffers from migraines. Sorry to inform you, but magnetic therapy work for us all. In addition to doing magnetic therapy, we also change our way of life, which is why I am ALL NATURAL!! Do I believe that one product or treatment will solves a persons issues? Absolutely not? That would be ludicrous. I feel like its a combination of your way of living. You take a pill to get rid of a headache, but you aren’t really solving your problem unless you figure out whats causing your headaches in the first place; otherwise you’ll be in the same situation again with the same results again…headache, pop a pill, go on your way.

If you know whats causing the headache wouldn’t it be smart to just avoid the cause, duh!!
Magnetic therapy helped take away my pain, but the cause was a result of being hit in a car accident years ago which left my vertebrae improperly aligned. Most car accidents victims suffer from back pain. After going to a chiropractor and getting properly aligned I no longer have the back pain period. Prior to going to the chiropractor, magnetic therapy helped to releas my pain until I found out what was causing the pain. What do you think massage practitioners do fluff and buff? We study anatomy and the cause and effect of pain. At least the smart legit practitioners do.
Ok…Point proven…moving on. I could go on for days with documented proof and explaining the science behind ANY natural modality that I use with my alterantive practice, but my time is valuable. I’ve worked with some of the best,which is why I am an expert in what I do.
I don’t an MLM to make money, I do that any way, and never approached the company for those purposes. I have a booming practice because Im good at what I do, knowledgable, and I produce results.

Thank You Chip

I totally appreciate that feed back. I have found a company out of Canada that I purchase items for. To the gentleman who needs proof, I use magentic therapy for back pain, so I not only do I perform magnetic therapy to my clients as a service, Im also proof that it works. You point is so true, its not the point of whether the products work or not. Hey, to each is its own. As a practitioner, my ONLY point is this company sells items that are above market value which I think is awful along with the fact the way they manipulate people to get involved is out of order.

To the gentleman who needs proof:
Alternative medicine is always going to be questionable in the west so thats neither here nor there. Its obviously doing alot of good for alot of people. Let me be clear, while we can ask for proof for everything, some things just IS!! You really wouldn’t know one way of another if you’ve never tried it with a open mind. Im a holistic practitioner for a reason, and my business wouldn’t be doing well if people were not getting results, even the skeptics.
My business has nothing to do with Nikken. I wouldn’t dare manipulate my clients with such garbage. This company has taken a legit modality and turning it into something horrible. I only got involved because I thought that I found more products that would help benefit my clients well-being. Once I got involved, i found out that the products came at an ridiculous price. I dont advertise anything to anybody without doing a case study first, because just like any other legit therapist, I need to know that what Im offering works. In addition to ALL that, I also understand that everybody’s anatomy is different. What may work for me may not necessarily work for the next person. Some people like the results of advil while others like tylenol…same point. Most of the cridics that write articles bashing alternative health, has never tried alternative health, so there opinions are meaningless.
I say do knock it until you try it and 1 day trials don’t count.
Thanks again Chip….for your positive feedback.

Actually, Hal, this blog exists for the (nearly) sole purpose of

CLAIMING that MLM is not a viable business model and that most people who get involved with it will lose money. We are making a claim, so any time someone comes in here making a claim to the contrary, they are, de facto, asking us to support our claim. We have, IMO, an obligation to do that, as best we can.

However, that does not diminish Mick’s assertion that someone whocomes into this blog making claims also has a burden of proof. If I’m going to claim that a claim you’ve made is wrong, it’s up to me to support my side of the argument. You support you claims, and I support mine.

Ordinarily, supporting a negative claim (that something is NOT so) is more difficult than supporting a positive one. However, we have thousands of posts here supporting our side. There’s no reason that a newcomer should be exempt from supporting his/her side as well.

IMO, the question with regard to Nikken, as I believe it was posed, is not whether or not the magnets work, but whether or not Nikken is a valid money-making endeavor. My experience, both studied and anecdotal, is that it is not.

And the big question people should be asking as they consider getting involved is why a company would be seeking out people to become salesmen for their products rather than customers for them? Why do MLM companies like AmQuix, Nikken, Melaleuca and others rely on direct sales rather than traditional advertising to sell their products?
Could it be that their products would not sell in a traditional marketplace and that they have to manipulate people in order to develop a customer base for their products? If all your salespeople are buying the products but doing very little retailing, who are the REAL customers? And why should it be a surprise when the salespeople can’t make a living selling their MLM product?

In short, who cares whether the magnets work? That really isn’t the central point of this blog.

IMHO it makes absolutely no difference in case of Nikken if magnets work or not

And the discussion of efficacy of magnets just distracts from the large pyramid scheme run by the company. I have personally known Nikken “consultants” that made it to platinum after 5 yrs of living and breathing everything “Nikken”, and today, they are just about broke!!

Nikken somehow specializes in flying below the regulatory and news Radar, but takes its consultants for BIG $$.

So while we can all disagree on whether magnets work, or studies or lack thereof, lets not loose sight of the MLM aspect of this discussion – and I think we can all agree – the products don’t matter…

As for the help asked for here by Anaya, I think we would get much further focusing on the MLM aspect, rather than trying to shake her belief in alternative medicine or magnets.

So Anaya, here’s the long and short of it – If you like Nikken’s super expensive products, thats one thing. If you are thinking about the business, know that you have to sign up for autoship(they also have super expensive vitamins – all top of the line of course :), meal replacements, shakes, bracelets, air purifiers etc, and sooner or later, you will own them all ) – They also have this “Wellness” home that you will have to buy at more than $5000. In addition, they have “mandatory” training before you can get to a level where you get any commissions. In short, my opinion is, walk away!!

If you do like magnets, there are other non-MLM vendors of magnetic insoles and such that you can google and get for waaaay less money that you would spend with Nikken….

Good luck!

No “magnets” do not work

Cite a study or two to back up the claim or please do not make it. It is very simple – stories do not mean evidence. Don’t come up with the “search google” argument – YOU made the assertion YOU provide the studies that prove your claim. As for the generality about the medical profession – you seem to have bought into the propaganda hook line and sinker without even stopping to wonder why. Did you study to be a doctor?

It is the willingness to be persuaded to swallow total tripe that leads people into MLMs.

Yes I do read the professional journals for my trade

As far as the effects of magnetic therapy, yes they do in fact work. I dont want to get preachy about eastern/chinese medicine but if you google magnetic therapy and read on its history you will find out the scientific information behind it. Being that our world (United States) does not teach us about natural healing metholodies, is not uncommon to hear feedback on skeptism on methods outside popping a pill for everything. In the states doctors treat the symptoms and not the actual problem which in return does not usually fix your problem. But why would they? If we knew how to take of ourselves without all the drugs, man made drugs at that, they would be out of business. As rich as our country is suppose to be, we have the WORST health compared to ANY other country in the world. Now why is that? This pertains to not just physical health, but mental health as well.

I said I wasnt going to get preachy…sorry. Its my profession. Kinda hard to keep a response short with you have so much knowledge on the subject at hand. My whole point is simply, just because a healing method does not refer to popping a pill, does not mean it doesn’t work. We all have natural energy healing properties. Rub your hands together and feel them warm up. Thats energy..You cant see it, but you know it exist because you can feel it.. The same with magnets. You may not see what it does to the body when you rub them on your body, but if you try it you will get some effects. The higher the guas of the magnet the stronger the effect it gives. Some situation may require 1 magnet where other situations may need 3 or 4 to give the same effect. Magnetic therapy needs to be performed by someone who knows what they are doing and understands the science behind it all, which is why I dont understand why this company has every Joe blow palying
practitioner to the public, and the products are OVERLY priced. In my opinion thats just being plan old manipulative.

Well that didnt get me? I’ll pay $75 to get inside a company and really find out whats going on. I look at it as my payment to do the research.
Anaya LMP, NCTM, Reiki, AMTA Professional

My involvement with Nikken is somewhat anecdotal, but I’ll toss it in and try to be brief

First, I commend you for doing some due diligence after the initial “HOLY COW! THIS IS GONNA MAKE ME RICH!!” phase subsided. I wish I would have done the same with my involvement in Amway and an Amway Motivational Organization.

Second, one of my brothers joined Nikken and spoke, too, of ultra high-priced products, rationalizing that THESE magnets were somehow better than (so-called) ‘normal’ magnets. He gave a wacky explanation, which I recall sounded like so much sales jargon that I — as his brother, mind you (and a thespian) — turned into a vignette about “At Nikken, we harvest only the BEST and BRIGHTEST electrons from the energy fields and valleys of atomic nuclei!!” which sort of pissed him off. But, hey, what are younger brothers for? And, besides, his rationale was obviously canned and avoided the issue. He spoke of having to ‘invest’ $2,500 (as I recall) in order ‘to REALLY get it going’ and I KNEW right then, this was a front-loaded sponsoring scheme.

He sponsored my dad, and both he and my dad swore by the products (as vehemently as they swore AT the prices) but (of course) “…distributors get a discount and, besides, when you sponsor (err…”help”) enough people it’s like getting these magnets for FREE.
Plus, you can make a TON of money. I mean, who do you want to help feel better or who do you know who wants to make a TON of money? Let’s call them now!…” Yeah. I think I know the rest.

Third, my brother and dad lost all their “investment” of $2,500 each, sponsored no one and had a slew of magnets they were wearing and “demo-ing” for months afterward, trying to create interest so they could sell their over-priced inventory and recoup at least SOME of their loss from the front-loaded bonus level “buy-in” scam.

Fourth, Nikken reeks of the putrid stench of “MLM” — and there are PLENTY of posts (way more detailed and succinct than mine could ever be) that thoroughly and finitely explain why MLMs, by their very nature, are bad business models and benefit the very few at the expense of the very many. Please continue to search MLMs business model on this site (and virtually ANY post by paine_wwweb_r on the topic!).

Fifth, take my story at face value only and do more research yourself before you part with THOUSANDS for (what I think can be proven by surfing this board) is just another scam to take advantage of the well-intentioned.

You are SO FAR ahead of the curve on this. Keep digging. Never stop asking questions.

All the best

Can any of you tell me if you’ve ever heard about a company called Nikken

If so can u tell me what u might know about it. I just recently signed up with this company and I think I may have made a mistake. I’m a holistic massage practitioner and was impressed with the thought of getting involved with a company that sold products that would help people to relieve pain w/o taking medication. As I sit here and read the post, I feel like I have been bamboozeled!! I these people dug for information about my personal interest and used it to get me involved in the business. Im usually pretty good on picking up on slicksters trying to run con games. Intuition is something else. I guess I haven’t been had like most people because as of now, I’ve only spent the $75 distributor fee which isn’t too bad considering the fact that I wanted the Magboys that came in the kit which is $69 in retail. After being introduced to company and signing up they were trying to get me to spend another $2600 and a bunch a magnetic products. Being that my background is in eastern/chinese medicine, I can say proudly that magnetic therapy does work but the products with this company, I found out after doing some research is extremely OVER priced!! My gut feeling tells me not to spend another dime with these people. My goal is to help people not manipulate people which is what I see happening as I observe this process now that Im in. Since I didnt spend all of this money immediately, my socall upline don’t reach out to me to socall help me build my business. I also told my upline that I wasnt interested in trying to call everybody I knew to get them to sign up for this business and then turn around and have to spend thousands of dollars for product. Dont these people understand that we are ij a recession? Seems like they could care less. Following my gut feeling, Im not spending ANY more money on a company that helps to break peoples pocket book rather than help build it.

What do you guys know about this company? Is it the same old mess like any other mlm?

All feedback is appreciated.